(first post) photographing snowflakes - advice on setup

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(first post) photographing snowflakes - advice on setup

Post by Guest »

Greetings. I've been trying to work on a setup besides just macro for photographing snowflakes. So far, the best I've been able to achieve with a Canon digital Rebel (300D) is this shot:

Image

This shot was done with a Canon 100mm macro lens with an old Mamiya 35mm lens reversed and taped to the front of the macro lens.

After looking around the web, some of the best snowflake pictures I have been able to find are at this website:

http://www.snowcrystals.com

I have approached the professor/photographer of the snowcrystals.com site but as yet have to receive any significiant response. I would like to be able to get shots of this quality. I understand these shots were done with this setup:

Image

I believe I understand what is happening with the fiber optic lighting but what I don't understand is the setup from the objectives up to the camera. It doesn't look like anything I've seen available commercially. I'd like to duplicate this setup as much as possible (with as little $$$ as possible :) ) I can understand the need to keep the heat source (lighting) as far away from the subject matter (snowflakes) as possible. Of course, they melt in an instant. As I mentioned before, my camera is a Canon DSLR, the digital Rebel (also known as the 300D). Any advice this board could give me on this would be greatly appreciated. Looking forward to any help. Thanks!

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Andy Sorensen
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Post by Andy Sorensen »

I'm sorry, I forgot to log in. The above post/request for info is mine.

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twebster
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Post by twebster »

Hi ya' Andy :D

Welcome aboard :D I'm not sure I can give you good advice about shooting snowflakes. I live in the middle of the Sonoran Desert and haven't seen a snowflake in ages. :D I can talk to you a bit about this setup, though.

This is a very sophisticated setup. It is built from optical bench components. First, as you have noted, the illumination is fiber optics to keep heat away from the snowflake. The extra photo lenses you see under the slide holder are simply to collimate the light from the lower fiber optic light guide. Collimating the light forces the light rays to travel parallel to one another. This light is providing back lighting for the snowflake and, if a colored gel is inserted in the light path, provides a background color. Between the lower fiber optic cable and the first collimating lens is an iris diaphragm to limit the size of the circle of illumination and to hold the colored filter gel. The upper fiber optic cable lights the top of the snowflake to give relief lighting.

Second, the upright that holds the camera and microscope lenses is an optical bench alignment rail turned 90° to the base plate. Those are microscope objective lenses on an optical bench turret. The tube that runs from the lenses to camera is fixed in length so that the microscope objective lenses are fixed at the proper "optical tube length" as if they were on a microscope. Microscope objective lenses perform the best at a fixed distance from the film plane. What I find very interesting is that the tube runs through a brick. The brick gives added mass to the setup to help minimize vibrations from the camera mirror.

Third, the microscope slide containing the snowflake is placed on a carrier that can be moved up and down the vertical upright to achieve focus on the snowflake. This is quite an elaborate and expensive setup, Andy, and would be hard to duplicate using lesser priced items. Frankly, I think it is overdone. From my experience with optical bench components there is easily $2000+ in this setup not to mention the cost of the microscope objective lenses. Basically, this person reinvented the microscope :!: :shock: :D

You can achieve similar results with any good trinocular microscope. The microscope already would have the transmitted lighting and a single optical fiber guide aimed from above would provide relief lighting on the snowflake. A camera mounted on the trinocular tube of a good microscope can be adjusted to the proper tube length for optimal optical performance and you can make the camera parfocal with the observing eyepieces so that you wouldn't have to try focusing through the camera's viewfinder. A big plus is that you could haul the whole microscope outside easier, set it up while it is cold, and not worry about the snowflake melting so fast.

The only issue would be mirror slap vibrations from your 300D. KenV has had a bit of experience dealing with mirror vibration issues and can give you good advice on how to minimize them. All in all, the cheapest way to duplicate this setup is to get a microscope.

Best regards to you, Andy. :D
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Andy Sorensen
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Post by Andy Sorensen »

Thank you for your response to my question(s). Your advice is appreciated. So, I guess I need to be in the market for a trinocular microscope if I want to pursue this method of snowflake photography. The best part of that is that it would open up other areas of photography that might interest me.

First off, the trinocular microscope. What would fit me needs best here? It looks like there are quite a few makers out there - any suggestions? What size of objectives? It looks like there is a broad range in prices - I presume that relates to not only the quality of the scope itself, but also to the quality of the objective lenses? To get similar quality in my snowflake photos like that on snowcrystals.com, will I need to spend $500, $1000, $1500, or more, on a scope?

Once a scope is obtained, is it best to set up the camera with a bellows like that seen in this thread:

http://www.photomacrography1.net/forum/ ... php?t=1228

As for mirror slap/shake, I believe that issue is already resolved with the firmware hack that is available for the 300D. It allows for mirror lockup which will eliminate that problem. Of course, there could be a small amount shake from the shutter. Does KenV have the firmware hack installed on his 300D?

I apologize for so many questions. I really have very little experience with scopes and absolutely no experience using them with a camera.

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Post by Guest »

Andy... Tom gave you good answers. I'll just add a reference to the photo you posted. The objectives on the "home-made" microscope in this picture are by Mitutoyo, and are specifically made to provide long working distances. They're used more in industry than in the biological sciences, and don't work properly on most of the microscopes you see people using here. If you plan on illuminating from the top as well, you will need to pay attention to the working distance of your objectives.

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Andy Sorensen
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Post by Andy Sorensen »

Thanks for the Mitutoyo info.

One thing I'm not sure about here, and maybe it can be explained. In the detail picture below, other than the objective lenses, are there any other lenses in the tube (the area I've circled) between the objectives and the camera itself? Or is this tube empty?

Image

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twebster
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Post by twebster »

Hi ya' Andy :D

Our "guest" made a good point about the objectives that I hadn't thought of. Yes, those are long-working distance objectives. You get more room between the lens and the snowflake to light the snowflake from above. On further reflection it would be very difficult to duplicate this setup with a microscope. Plus, those Mitutoyo objectives are quite pricey. I guess a person could use a microscope stand and objectives made for metalurgical studies. Those objectives have a 210 mm tube length and additional working distance between the objective lens and subject. I don't think the metalurgical objectives are good for transmitted light, however.

The long tube you are refering to has no lenses in it. It is simply used to place the camera back at the proper distance from the objective such that the objective lens forms the most aberration-free image. Think of it as a very long extension tube.

Andy, what is wrong with your current setup? Perhaps you can post an image or two of what you are using now and we can get a better feel for your needs.

Best regards, :D
Tom Webster
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Andy Sorensen
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Post by Andy Sorensen »

Tom,

Sure. My setup is nothing more than a Canon 100mm macro lens with a 35 mm lens reversed and taped to the Canon lens. This is set up on a focusing rail which is on a good bogen tripod - your basic macro gear. I place this over a piece of glass to which I put the snowflakes on. Lighting comes from beneath by a set of strong flourescents. Focus. Push shutter button (using mirror lockup and a timed delay). Thats it.

I guess I'm a bit discouraged at this point. I certainly didn't think this home brewed setup would be so difficult. I figured a person would just need to creatively assemble bits and parts to get something like this to work. I also figured the most difficult part would be getting the objective lens (ebay?) & mount firmly attached to a stable piece of say, pvc pipe, attach that to a bellows which attaches to a camera on a rail so you could easily adjust the objective to camera sensor distance - all this on something like an old enlarger stand. Add lighting and some sort of adjustable stage. Naive on my part, I guess.

I suppose I could continue my efforts with macro equipment, and maybe purchase the Canon MP-E 65mm 1x-5x lens ($800+), but I just don't think it will be able to capture the same detail and get the same quality images as I'm seeing in the snowcrystals.com site. I don't know....

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Post by Charles Krebs »

Andy (and Tom)... I was the mystereous "guest" that mentioned the Mitutoyo objectives :wink:

I don't know too much about them other than the specs (and as Tom mentioned the price!!). They are "infinity" objectives, so normally there would be a "tube lens" inside the area you have circled if it were set up as a "normal" microscope. Since I've never played around with "infinity" objectives I really don't know what would be required to make a direct camera attachment as illustrated in the overall picture of the set-up.

But I do have a great deal of experience with photomacrography, and I do have the Canon MPE 65 macro as well.

On the site you mentioned (I've seen it before, the photos are great!) they say that the typical snowflake is in the 1mm-5mm range. In order to fill the frame of your Canon 300D (sensor size 15.1 x 22.7 mm) you would need to encompass a magnification range of about 3X to 15X. These are pretty high magnifications, but not anywhere near the need to go to a microscope set-up. I can think of a several of ways to work in that range with super optical quality.

The Canon 65mm MPE would get you up to 8X by itself. This would fill the frame (top to bottom, narrower dimension) with a subject just under 2mm in diameter. This gets you very close to where you want to be... depends on the the size of your snowflakes!.

Another option, (and a very economical one) would be a high quality enlarging lens reverse mounted to a bellows. (There are similar lenses made specifically for photomacrography, such as the Zeiss Luminars that are superb but quite expensive. Canon once made a 35mm photomacrography bellows lens. It may still be available, and they were not very expensive. I have one and they are great. But you might not be able to do the larger flakes with it when it is on a bellows as the minimum magnification might be too great). The nice thing about enlarging lenses is that as the world of photography goes digital, they sell for a small fraction of their original cost. Rodenstock Apo-Rodagon's, Schneider Componon-S, El Nikkor's are plentiful on eBay. (Just be sure to get one with "filter" threads if you go this route... they don't all have them.)

Actually I think the optics are pretty straightforward. I would think it would be crucial to develop solid, functional "platform" that would provide the lighting you need.

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Post by twebster »

Hey Charlie :!: :D

You're correct in that there needs to be a tube lens in the lens extension to use the infinity corrected objective lenses. I completely missed that. :(

One thought that I had was to mount a Zeiss 2.5x Plan-Achromat in the center of a rear lens cap and mounting that to a bellows. Set the bellows at 160 mm from back of objective lens to ccd plane to get the correct "tube length". I think the idea of mounting the camera and bellows on a sturdy enlarger base is fine. When I shoot film my camera and bellows is set up on an enlarger base. The bellows I have has a focusing rail built in but I think there is a better idea for focusing.

I would watch eBay for an inexpensive microscope base that has the specimen stage but no illuminator and no nosepiece. I would then cut off the microscope arm so you are left with only the fine focus and specimen stage. A mirror under the stage can reflect light from a fiber optic illuminator through the bottom of the stage. You could use another fiber optic illuminator to light the snowflake from above. You could capture your snowflake on a microscope slide, compose with the stage controls and fine-focus the image using the fine focus on the microscope base. Think about it... :D

Best regards, :D
Tom Webster
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Post by Charles Krebs »

Hi Tom, Andy....

I have been thinking about it. Again.... what's that they say about great minds thinking alike... :wink:

I was thinking how I would approach it now that I have both microscope stuff and phomacrography gear. (assuming I'm not going to invest in several Mitutoyo objectives and tube lenses).

Like you Tom, I would go with a microscope "base" for final focus. I've used many focus rails over the years, but none would be as good as being able to use a microscope focus mechanism. (You would still need a focus rail or "copy stand" arrangement of some type to get the camera/optics within range of the microscope stage.) Since backlighting a tiny area is essential, again a microscope base makes this much simpler. (I'm still thinking about the best way to get the "graduated" background).

I might actually prefer to use something other than microscope objectives. With objectives you are somewhat locked into a fixed magnification with each objective. I would prefer to have a continuously variable magnification range so that I could use the fullest amount of the image sensor area.

Still thinking....

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Post by Andy Sorensen »

Ahhhh. This is what I love. Thinking outside the box.

Appreciate these ideas. Keep 'em coming! :D

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Post by nzmacro »

The lens that Charles mentioned there for the bellows made by Canon are interesting optics. Charles Chien and I looked at a 35mm on Ebay for $450 US, second hand. Canon also made a 20mm which got higher ratios again........I got a link somewhere on these, hang on

http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/co ... 5macro.htm

Olympus also made an excellent set as well. They have a built in manual operating aperture, very clever design. Charles Chien and I are both after the Canons or Olympus versions :wink:

Charles Chien also uses an enlarging lens which prove to be superb on a bellows as well. I think he was using a Leitz ?? Nikkor also make excellent enlarging lenses that would work well. I use a Leitz slide projector lens on the front of the FZ10 but prefer the Canons to be honest. Ratio would be well over 15x with full zoom. But you are using a 300D, so forget that :D

All the best Andy.

Danny.

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Andy Sorensen
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Post by Andy Sorensen »

Thanks for all the great info. One thing I tried tonight (had a BIG storm move through here) was to use transmitted light. I invested very little in this experiment - about $10 for an LED flashlight. Promise not to laugh but here is my set up:

Image

Yep, I found a new use for those Costco boxes. :D

The LED light is poking thru the bottom box. An old Olympus 50mm lens is poking through the top box and acting as a sort of condensor. I put a sheet of glass over that. Using a Canon 100mm macro lens with a Mamiya 35mm lens reversed and taped to the macro. I shot wide open (f.2.8 ) with a fast shutter speed (1/4000). I also utilized the mirror lockup feature to reduce camera vibrations. The first picture below is nearly full frame, while the second is a small detail from the center of one of the flakes:

Image

Image

So what do you think?

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Post by Mike »

Hi Andy,

Why would anyone laugh when they look at the results?

This is fantastic and demonstrates, (yet again) it is not the equipment that makes the shot, it is the person using the equipment.

This is a superb image!

All the best,

Mike

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